Jacque fresco and the venus project

its pretty hilarious what he did there though. really you can make anything sound like an illuminati plot to take over the world

i hope this is what he is doing and trying to test me, because im like really surprised.
Actually, i think he is lying. Last time i talked to Que, he actually really like Peter Joseph and his ideas. HA, you are just playing with me Que, right?

Peter Joseph is a smart guy I will give him that but he is advocating communism only that machines do all the work instead of people. I mean look at what he recommends about cars and bikes, you just grab one and take off and when you are done you put it back in the "common pile" it is the peoples bike, the peoples car, the peoples food. There are over 300 million Americans in this country and if you think that all of them will just take what they need and nothing more you are a fool. Communism and socialism both look good on paper but don't work in practice because of human nature. People always take more than they need. I mean look at the multi billionaires around the world. A person couldn't spend one BILLION dollars in a lifetime but do these people retire? No they keep trying to earn more and more even though they can't use all of it. You would need to eliminate this trait for Project Venus to work.

Communism used government and money, so this AGAIN is irrelevant. Also, the forms of communism that were implemented were not the ones visioned my Marx, actually, no form of communist was based EXACTLY of Marx's, so we dont know the full potential of communism.

And the human nature argument? the last resort of a man with no answers, its like the " its god" "its a miracle" argument, what they have in common? NON HAVE BEEN PROVEN.
You say its human nature, well here you go, right from the website, but you OBVIOUSLY didnt take the time to read it



From H. G. Wells, "The anti-progressives of the early twentieth century loved to assert that "Human Nature" never altered; to imagine that the men of the Stone Age felt and thought like bank clerks picnicking in a cave, and the ideas of Confucius and Buddha were easily interchangeable with the ideas of Rousseau, Karl Marx or De Windt. They were not simply ignorant, but misinformed about almost every essential fact in the past experiences and present situation of the race."

The New Utopians by Robert Boguslaw: "As Norman R. F. Maier (and others) point out years ago, the term "Human Nature" is characteristically used as a screen to hide our ignorance about man in general. And one of the more elementary oversights made in discussions of human behavior consists of ignoring the fact that the actions of men are set in motion by external as well as internal forces."

As Arthur C. Clark and many other forward writers have pointed out, anyone who brings up the human nature question is naïve.

From the book Looking Forward, by Jacque Fresco:

"When little was known about cultural anthropology, sociology, and psychology, it seemed quite valid to resist proposed reforms by saying, "it won't work. It is against human nature." It is difficult for many people to appreciate the fact that what they call "human nature" just doesn't exit. People are like mirrors they largely reflect their surroundings. If people were to come into the world with a fixed "nature" consisting of automatic responses, civilization would be impossible. Like the ants, we would live out our lives in patterns that are modified but little with the passing of time. The wonderful thing about us is that we come into this world with maximum flexibility."

From The Best That Money Can't Buy, Page89, by Jacque Fresco

Bigotry, racism, nationalism, jealousy, superstition, greed, and self-centered behavior are all learned patterns of behavior, which are strengthened or reinforced by our upbringing. These patterns of behavior are not inherited human traits or "human nature" as most people have been taught to believe. If the environment remains unaltered, similar behavior will reoccur. When we come into the world we arrive with a clean slate as far as our relationships with others are concerned.

In the final analysis, any judgment regarding undesirable human behavior serves no purpose without an attempt to alter the environment that creates it. In a society that provides for most human needs, constructive behavior would be reinforced, and people who have difficulty interacting in the community would be helped rather than imprisoned.

Aspiring to a particular ethical behavior has to do with human aspirations and ideals. Functional morality is the ability to provide a process level to achieve a sustainable environment for all people. By this, we mean providing clean air and water, goods and services, and a healthy and innovative environment that is emotionally and intellectually fulfilling. It is difficult to conceive of any solutions that would serve the interest of the majority in a monetary-based system. None of this can be accomplished without a comprehensive redesign of our social system and eventual replacement of the monetary-based system by a resource-based economy.
This pretty much owns your argument.
also check this out
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joo ... emid=66#45

I'm done. You win! ;-D

*proud*

I'm done. You win! ;-D

*proud*

hhuuhh???
do i sense que giving up? oh nononononono

No one can be convinced of anything. Everyone believes what they want.

My goal isn't to change beliefs, it is to get people to stand up for what they believe in. If you want to be a leader you need to learn to be able to defend and express your views in a convincing manner. You have done that. I can't debate human nature with you because it can't be proven we can only wait and see what happens next.

also about the argument you presented saying Venus stands for Satan, well, the reason its called venus project is because the city it originated from is called Venus, Florida.
Amazing right?

Also steeler you never explained yourself.
Im interested to see what everyone thinks, only person who talked was que.
Is no one really interested in this?

also about the argument you presented saying Venus stands for Satan, well, the reason its called venus project is because the city it originated from is called Venus, Florida.
Amazing right?

Yea Amazing. How do you know they didn't move it to Venus, Florida or start it there just for the name? If you think this is a mere coincidence you need to review your NWO facts.

Ultimately Venus Project is COMMUNISM. I don't like Communism because I like to have a choice. In communism there are no choices you take what is given to you.

The NWO want you to be happy getting "community golf clubs" and sharing cars and providing everything for you so you can stay DUMB; that way, they can take claim over everything else. Including you!

Steeler ain't coming back on this thread. The only reason you and I are even debating is because no one else understands or cares.

You keep bringing back that invalid argument that its communism.
Communism uses money, venus project does not
Communism has government, venus project does not
Communism has powerful officials, venus project does not
Communism has corporations, venus project does not
Communism has police, soldiers, prisons, venus project doesnt
Communism tells you where you live, what you eat, how much money you have, where you work and what you do, venus project doesnt!
communism and venus project only has one thing in common, and thats the sharing part.
Whats wrong with sharing?
How does providing everything for you make you dumb?
How well they take claim over me?

Dammit, i've been to so many forums discussing this, none have ever brought up this bs about it being part of NWO plans except Alex Jones worshippers, and surely your not one i hope?
The whole name thing is ridiculous, i cant believe you of all people find that credible. The dude lived in Venus, he thought of it in Venus, so he named it Venus project. Who cares what the name is, its the ideas that matter

Quit being so paranoid, and embrace the ideas, understand what kind of world we will achieve.
With this system, we will never get anywhere


Pretty much sums it up, taken from a person i met on a forum.

"You guys really miss the boat on this stuff because you're so f**k brainwashed by this super-individualist ethos that you miss out on new ways of thinking. . .Plato's Utopia, the NWO and Comunism, etc have NOTHING to do with Fresco's work!!! He despises a regimented society controlled by the government! He thinks it only makes sense to utilize machines to do the LABOR that is unnecessary for us to do when we have such technological capabilities. . .that leaves us humans with more time and ability to pursue things that are more of a creative spirit such as art, philosophy, music, community, meditation, love, relaxation, etc Instead of being a little fascist on a tread mill as we are in America, working ultimately for corporations who work with governments, we could instead become self-responsible for the direction of government and the evolution of our society and start taking the lead ourselves. . .

I am not even going to waste space quoting you since no one else will weigh in.

First I have to define Communism since you Venus Project zombies don't know what it means and Jacques Fresco won't tell you.

communism: a theory advocating elimination of private property
or a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.

When I say Communism you think of Soviet states and Socialist Governments which originally intended to follow Marxx's ideology but went completely awry for some reason (human nature?) and that is why you embrace Venus Project.

Karl Marxx wrote the Communist Manifesto if you did not already know.

According to Marxx there are two main classes of people: capitalists and workers.
This is briefly explained in Zeitgeist movement films and literature.

Marxism holds that capitalism is exploitive and economically irrational.
Venus project states the same.

Marxism aims at the elimination of capitalism and its replacement by a classless society in which goods are produced for their usefulness not profitability
Venus project states the same.

How does providing everything for you make you dumb? Plato states "necessity is the mother of invention". If everything you could want or need is given to you then what do you have to think about? Absolutely nothing.

How will they take claim? Under Venus Project you will be given everything you NEED and nothing more as it will become wasteful to cater to individual whims This is why there is such a push to eliminate individuality. This works great for social insects. Are you an insect?

I don't really follow Alex Jones and a quick scan doesn't reveal that his camp agrees with my conclusions.

I agree with you that it IS the ideas that matter but you also have to think for yourself. My Idea is to eliminate central banking and to put limits on individual wealth.

Be your own leader and quit latching on to the ideas of others for guidance. You have been beguiled into believing Venus Project will save all of humanity. There are 6 billion people on the planet right now. Do you really think there is any possibility of Venus Project ever being pulled off with a population of that size?

OMG I have to quote you on this ill though out statement:

With this system, we will never get anywhere

This system has explored the bottom of the ocean and even space. So where exactly do you want to get to? Perhaps you should clarify you statement a bit.

You of all people should know that the current system is being controlled via the international bankers. Good luck eliminating them. If Venus Project EVER goes forward it was because they allow it.

So to sum up my statements and to answer what the person on the forum stated:

Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of production and property in general.

You don't know what Communism is and that is why you embrace the Venus project. Venus Project is the same polished turd that was promised to the Russians after the oppression of the Tsar's and the Chinese after Dynastic rule and the Cubans after years of dictatorship and other places around the world (Vietnam, Korea etc).

Over the past 100 years or so, whenever people are dissatisfied with earning their keep, some form of communism always rears it's head and it NEVER delivers on it's promises.

In the book "Socialist Thought" Albert Fried writes:

"It is not sufficient to say that slavery succeed cannibalism that serfdom succeeded slavery and that the collectivist or communist regime will succeed that of wage labour."

Turn off Yourtube and READ Farquezy, READ!!

Well havent done youtube videos in a while, but after watching the Zeitgeist movement orientation(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261) i really got pulled into the Venus Project(http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=66#4) and the person who came up with it.
This is when i found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZDCafc ... annel_page, the man who created the venus project
This man is a idol to me, his ideas are those that i wish to see implemented into the world.
This man was talking about this even in the 1974, here is his interview with Larry King http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uXBzE5q7Pw

I truly love this man, he to me is at the same levels as Einstein and Edison.

At first, i thought this idea was just another communist idea, but the more i researched it, the more i loved it. This truly is the best way to progress as humans
Tell me what you think

The man is 93, and still a genius, i hope one day he is praised for his work.
If you want to hear him talk more, here is a link, its very interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJMlZWTF ... re=related

I looked at the first 10 minutes of that first video.
What I find interesting is the fact that there's probably an untapped market for junkyard/landfill clearing.
I mean really, do you know what I could with some of those old cell phones? People throw out a lot of things unnecessarily.
Such, unfortunately, is human nature. We are wasteful, and we cause unnecessary pollution.
I bet there are a few computers in some junkyards/landfills that someone threw out just because the hard drive crashed.

Also, Farq. I've always had the idea of abolishing the monetary system. One day I asked my social studies teacher this question "I think that if we removed the monetary system we would be in a better state. We could do things the way they were done a while ago. Through bartering for other goods/services. Don't you agree?"

There are two important things that the monetary system does:

#1 The works on a "Supply and Demand basis". If there is little demand for a product, there is small production of that product. While there are indeed flaws in this, there is also the fact that it preserves resources. The downside to this is that usually store shelves are usually packed with unnecessarily large quantities of a product. There are many times in which you can go to a department store look at a product, leave it there, come back in a year or so, and it's still there. The exact same product you looked at one year earlier. Now, food is also a good example. How does McDonalds(and other fast food chains) Work? They make 10-20-30 burgers and then keep them on heated shelves. They make burgers in large quantities so that people can conveniently walk in and walk out. The down side to this is that a day usually comes that few people go into a McDonalds (Just for that day) and all of the food goes to waste. Which does bring up another point, but I'll go into that in it's own paragraph.

#2 Now, this is more consumption of resources. If people have to work for a month before they can buy an item what does that do? It causes resources to be used at a slower rate. If anyone can obtain anything without ever having to wait to get it that poses a problem as resources are consumed unnecessarily fast. The one thing we do have to look positively on are water and lumber. Those are two constant resources. Why? We will never run out of water, as water has a cycle that never stops. As long as we have an atmosphere we have water. As long as we have sunlight we have water. Lumber is another abundant resource. If I had my way we would only collect our lumber from two places: Canada, and Russia. The Canadian Shield has an abundance of Lumber, as does all of northern Russia. But Our biggest problem for lumber is the rain forests. They're being cut down. But not just cut down. People are using Slash and Burn tactics to clear out rain forests which has some devastating effects. But this is somewhat off topic.

Now, here's the problem I said would get it's own paragraph. Creation and non-use. You can't make 100 blenders only for 10 of them to sell. Such wastes resources greatly. This is what I'm referring to when I say "an item may sit on a shelf for a year and not sell." Here's what I think: Factory's should work on a [order <-> creation] basis. Like this they do not have store shelves stocked, but they do have all of the resources available to make the items as they are asked for. I know this takes longer, and doesn't have any convenience at all, but I mean hey! We have the technology where you can place an order online and have the item shipped to you, so why not add 'made for you' to the process, heh?

Roxfox, what you say is exactly what the venus project presents.
It says to make things when they are needed by people, but make them and let them sit there.
Also people say " well then people will take more then they need". The question i ask is why would they? When everything is abundant and there is no need to fight for resources, people wont try to be greedy because there is no need to be greedy.

To Que:
I dont even know what to say to you dude. Ideologically, venus project and communism are pretty similar, but when it comes to structure wise, they are completely different.
Jacque said in a interview that communism was what he got this idea from.

Now what i mean they are structurally different is what i stated before,
Communism uses money, venus project does not
Communism has government, venus project does not
Communism has powerful officials, venus project does not
Communism has corporations, venus project does not
Communism has police, soldiers, prisons, venus project doesnt
Communism tells you where you live, what you eat, how much money you have, where you work and what you do, venus project doesnt!

They both follow the same ideologies, as they both wish to have a classless society in which goods are produced for their usefulness not profitability. Also they wish to stop private ownership of land
THAT ALL THEY HAVE IN COMMON

You keep saying this stuff like its wrong. Whats wrong with having a classless society?
what wrong with producing goods that are efficient and useful?

You say Venus Project will be implemented only if bankers allow it, i guess Nazi Germany failed and was destroyed just because Hitlar allowed it? What kind of twisted f$%#ed of ideology is that? Just because something seems hard to abolish, it doesnt mean it is only abolished because it is allowed to be abolished

And obviously i know what communism is better then you do, because you keep linking it with Venus Project, when is reality its NOTHING like the Venus project structural wise. Literal wise, communism is what the venus project sound like, but in reality communism as we know it is much different.

You keep saying this like there is something wrong with the idea presented, but you never say whats wrong with it, you keep trying to say its communism or a NWO plot. Whats so bad about the ideas of the Venus project

You also tell me to
"Be your own leader and quit latching on to the ideas of others for guidance. You have been beguiled into believing Venus Project will save all of humanity." When your the only putting your faith into the monetary system, how about you be your own leader and quit following this 3000 year old or maybe older tradition that has gotten humanity nowhere in my opinion.
You say it got us to space, well i dont see myself in space, i only the the rich and powerful and those who can afford it like Sir Richard Branson.
You need to open your mind to new ideas, we need a new system, and this is exactly what we need

QUIT TRYING TO LINK IT TO COMMUNISM, no communism has been anything like the Venus Project. Such a thing has never been tried, and its time to try it


EDIT: i just learned that you do have private ownership in venus project, you own your house, your stuff, and no one can take it away from you
Its based on the simple laws of life, liberty, property, and pursuit of happiness, pretty much like the laws we have now

You don't know what you are talking about. I toldyou to READ!

Now what i mean they are structurally different is what i stated before,Communism uses money, venus project does not

Incorrect. Communist Manifesto states: "There can no longer be any wage labor when there is no longer any capital."

Communism has government, venus project does not

Incorrect. Communist Manifesto states: The proletarians cannot become masters of the productive forces of society, except by abolishing their own previous mode of appropriation, and thereby also every other previous mode of appropriation.

Communism has powerful officials, venus project does not

Incorrect. Communist Manifesto states:Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

Communism has corporations, venus project does not

Incorrect. The Corporation is a Capitalist concept, communism and Venus Project agree here. Do you even pay attention to the garbage you write?

Communism has police, soldiers, prisons, venus project doesnt

Incorrect. Communist Manifesto states: Oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

Communism tells you where you live, what you eat, how much money you have, where you work and what you do, venus project doesnt!

Incorrect. Under true communism everyone is an equal therefore there will be no one in charge to direct you in any way. Everyone contributes to the "community" in whatever way they can, Just like Venus Project; unlike in Venus Project Marxx did not imagine machines or robots performing the toils of the proletarians (workers) so that is why under communism everyone is encouraged to contribute in any way they can.

As you can see they both communism and Venus Project have more in common than you have been told. This is why you need to READ the Communist Manifesto for yourself if you want to keep continuing this debate.

You keep saying this stuff like its wrong. Whats wrong with having a classless society?

Nothing.

what wrong with producing goods that are efficient and useful?

Nothing.

You say Venus Project will be implemented only if bankers allow it, i guess Nazi Germany failed and was destroyed just because Hitlar allowed it? What kind of twisted f$%#ed of ideology is that? Just because something seems hard to abolish, it doesnt mean it is only abolished because it is allowed to be abolished

Bad supporting example. Hitler was funded by the Union Banking Corporation in America headed by Prescott Bush. Hitler also created the Nazi party in in 1920. Hitler was over run by allied forces in 1945 so to say that he allowed anything is not clear. Exactly what is it you are trying to say?

And obviously i know what communism is better then you do, because you keep linking it with Venus Project, when is reality its NOTHING like the Venus project structural wise.

So you are an expert now because you saw a video in which you agree with another persons work? READ. Look into it for yourself. You will soon realize the similarities between communism and Venus Project.

Literal wise, communism is what the venus project sound like, but in reality communism as we know it is much different.

See? Communism as YOU know it and you don't know much about it. I stated already that the so called communists we fought against during McCarthyism were not true Marxists. They did not adhere to the principles of communism (human nature?)as outlined in the communist manifesto and thus ultimately failed.

You keep saying this like there is something wrong with the idea presented, but you never say whats wrong with it, you keep trying to say its communism or a NWO plot. Whats so bad about the ideas of the Venus project

Choice. There is no choice, that is what is wrong. You take what is available and individuality is shunned.

You also tell me to "Be your own leader and quit latching on to the ideas of others for guidance. You have been beguiled into believing Venus Project will save all of humanity." When your the only putting your faith into the monetary system, how about you be your own leader and quit following this 3000 year old or maybe older tradition

This point is somewhat more valid than your previous ones. I stated that I want to abolish central banking but I am fine with a monetary system. I am sure that there is a compromise somewhere and I am willing to accept something in between as long as I can express myself as a person and have a choice.

quit following this 3000 year old or maybe older tradition that has gotten humanity nowhere in my opinion. You say it got us to space, well i dont see myself in space, i only the the rich and powerful and those who can afford it like Sir Richard Branson.

Space is still relatively new to humanity. You are young. You can earn your millions and buy a trip on a Russian Rocket or you can study hard and become an astronaut. Either way you need to do something for yourself instead of expecting it to be done for you; I guess that applies to everything.

You need to open your mind to new ideas, we need a new system, and this is exactly what we need.

Communism isn't new.

QUIT TRYING TO LINK IT TO COMMUNISM, no communism has been anything like the Venus Project. Such a thing has never been tried, and its time to try it

Some recent examples of communism in America: Jonestown, Waco, Desert LDS communities and other polygamist groups. Communism isn't new. IN FACT the word COMMUNITY shares the same root as COMMUNISM which at it's most simplest level can be defined as the abolition of private property or the complete sharing of resources. This happens today in many communities to some extent. You can see it's origins in philosophies such as Plato and Aristotle. Venus Project wants to have machines do all the labour and have people share all the resources. This is the only difference between the original definition of communism and Venus Project. Every thing else is the same; such as the elimination of the ruling class, the elimination of capital, the elimination of private ownership and the elimination of individualism.

Dang I haven't even looked at this thread except the first post when Farq made it a while back because of the youtube thing . I will check it out later, although I'm not well informed on all this stuff but it looks interesting.

Roxfox, what you say is exactly what the venus project presents.
It says to make things when they are needed by people, but make them and let them sit there.
Also people say " well then people will take more then they need". The question i ask is why would they? When everything is abundant and there is no need to fight for resources, people wont try to be greedy because there is no need to be greedy.

I said I made very many ideas similar to the venus project, even though the first time I've even heard of it was this morning.
Ultimately, there is just one problem with Jacque Fresco's idea and with mine. It's the reason that our economy is weak and crumbling and the reason why no one has jobs.
The reason is that people aren't willing to adapt.
If they can't do it in their own economic system, they can't do it in mine, nor Jacque Fresco's.
At this point, if ideas like this were even attempted it would be shot down like a bird.
The reason is that people aren't willing to adapt.

Communism uses money, venus project does not
Communism has government, venus project does not
Communism has powerful officials, venus project does not
Communism has corporations, venus project does not
Communism has police, soldiers, prisons, venus project doesnt
Communism tells you where you live, what you eat, how much money you have, where you work and what you do, venus project doesnt!

You say that then say this?

EDIT: i just learned that you do have private ownership in venus project, you own your house, your stuff, and no one can take it away from you
Its based on the simple laws of life, liberty, property, and pursuit of happiness, pretty much like the laws we have now

Learn what a paradox is kid, because you just made one.

Que, if what you said is true, and i wouldnt know because i havent read the manifesto, then holy S@#% i dont know anything about communism.
If thats the case, i blame the education system, we are actually studying Marxism, communism, and Stalin's ideas on communism in English and reading Animal Farm.
From what i gathered, Marx said communism required a strong federal government, which is the opposite of what you're saying. I dont know that what you say is true, but based on the facts presented to me in school, the communism i know is nothing alike the Venus Project.

But even if it is like communism, i dont give a rats a$$. It makes since, the ideas can and will work if implemented properly, and i believe it is a great steps towards a better society.
I really dont understand why you oppose it.

Communism uses money, venus project does not
Communism has government, venus project does not
Communism has powerful officials, venus project does not
Communism has corporations, venus project does not
Communism has police, soldiers, prisons, venus project doesnt
Communism tells you where you live, what you eat, how much money you have, where you work and what you do, venus project doesnt!

You say that then say this?

EDIT: i just learned that you do have private ownership in venus project, you own your house, your stuff, and no one can take it away from you
Its based on the simple laws of life, liberty, property, and pursuit of happiness, pretty much like the laws we have now

Learn what a paradox is kid, because you just made one.
What? I say that Communism doesnt want private ownership while venus project does, how is this a paradox?

And about the Hitler statement, i meant that at the time NO ONE ever would have believe that the Nazi's could have been stopped, but they were., i know this because my grandfather told me and he lived during that time. So im saying even the strongest forces in the world can be stopped

"consumed"®, not obsessed. Go to sleep everyone. Just enjoy your lives until you die. See you all on judgement day!!! Will be a sad and happy day at the same time. Prepare or not?!?