Official Religion Debate Thread

LOL used my friends computer and his name to post!
It's DPM lol. Laugh at me.

I find that we're having a good discussion with actually interesting subjects and you post about how we need to calm down or one of the few sides of the belief is becoming 'disruptive' when in fact, we're doing nothing wrong at all.

Please, crait, don't take me wrong friend. I like the current discussion and I enjoy reading every post, but when anyone single member's beliefs may come into the hellfire of posts and some condescending posts are made, that can potentially discourage an honest, cohesive discussion. This is a serious topic and I feel for the most part we're being mature and upfront with how we each feel and I'm honestly proud of how honest some of our members are with their expressions on how they feel about this world and and another. But as an administrator, I feel one member's open and honest concerns about his feelings on this personal matter may be being discarded without providing a positive influence to the discussion he's trying to talk about.

I want nobody to feel they shouldn't feel free to post in this thread. I'd do the same for BKF as I would que as I would Mailas, and Mailas is a little boy

EDIT ~ As far as "disruptive posting" and how you feel I'm "shouting" I understand where you're coming from. You should know and expect of me that I would not be "shouting" or "yelling" by doing that. I make abnormally huge posts sometimes. I do so to emphasize my points, yes, to encourage people to get the exact point that I'm trying to make and I feel it's a good form of expression.

-DarkPacMan77-

[crait]

DPM, or MG, or whoever's floating your boat, whenever you post with 4 or 5 different styles within a single sentence, it is over emphasis and is taking away from other posts. It's hard to convey how I feel about this without relating it to something we used to see everyday and to some extent, still do. Remember browsing the web about 8, 9, years ago when every website had ads that just blinked neon colors? Well, it distracted from the real point of the website. The advertisements don't do this as often because the marketers have realized that pulling away from the website's initial intentions was hurting it and therefore, the website's owner wouldn't want to do business with them anymore.
I'm not just saying it's you, (but if that's who you saw posting that way, then whatever), but it is pulling away from the message of the thread, the post it is contained within, and the other people's posts. I do find it as shouting or a slap in the face as if it's an intimidation tactic-

Please, crait, don't take me wrong friend. I like the current discussion and I enjoy reading every post, but when anyone single member's beliefs may come into the hellfire of posts and some condescending posts are made, that can potentially discourage an honest, cohesive discussion.

Right. That's why I feel discouraged to post in this thread.

But as an administrator, I feel one member's open and honest concerns about his feelings on this personal matter may be being discarded [...]

Right, again. In fact, it's a few members who are having their posts discarded. I know I've stated many times that "[I]... keep asking for elaborations. " and that "just because two things are similar, doesn't mean that they come from the same thing."

And it's not just then, either. I've disproved many points by a few members and it seems every time I do, the topic is quickly switched to something else of equal redundancy or equal ludicrousness. I honestly don't know why many of the greatest posts in this thread are overlooked- And what get's me is that it's overlooked for nonsense!
I understand that what isn't important to me may be to someone else and to a great extent, I extend my empathy and try to look at the situation from another stand point but I can only go so far. I can't keep saying the same thing over and over again- If people say something over and over again and they're ignored, they're probably going to keep being ignored.
I seriously hate this thread because only certain posts are picked to be critiqued and usually, it's the ones that are more flashy with their HUGE fonts. It's unfair, distracting, and kills the discussion.

What really bothers me is that I try to keep my posts relatively short so people won't think it's a chore to read over it. I don't know if it's laziness, a misinterpretation, or someone just got 'PWN3D' and they're shutting up about the mini-topic. Maybe they just ignore my posts?

The reason I've been repetitive with my rebuttals is because I believe that he is making the same mistake over and over. I believe that this is why others are echoing their viewpoints and reading this thread from the most recent 10 pages, I'd say it would seem like we're being a tad harsh to him because we keep saying the same thing over and over as if we're not even reading his posts.
No disrespect, but that's how I view the situation and I believe that is why others are, too.

No disrespect taken and please none is intended with this next post but I am outside the box yourself and others are in it looking outward (OH and the lid is closed) but it doesn't matter as long as you are happy.

I assume you all have read the bible (seriously read the bible) but I also conclude than none of you have taken any consideration towards other religious works even the so called "Mythologies" which at some point were taken as seriously as Christianity is today. This is why you don't see my points, you lack the foundation that I have which also includes a good dose of world history (it helps more than you think).

For example (an extreme one) I assume you wouldn't touch a Satanic bible because of your fear of what could happen if you did (possession by demons perhaps? Seriously?). I don't have this encumbrance (It's just a stack of paper!) I am not superstitious and I feel that is why you fail to see what I am trying to show all of you.

Some of you conclude that I am an astrologer of sorts; I am not. I couldn't recite a complete zodiac without looking it up just like most of you couldn't name all 10 commandments without looking them up(Let's be honest here). The difference? I don't call myself anything but open minded and a free thinker. That's just a comment not a judgment.

Mostly @ crait:

Allow me to illustrate my entire mistake in a different way.

I know people that pray to gods that have many arms or blue skin. You may even go as far as calling those gods DEMONS (Let that though soak in for a minute....) Do you realize that the bible doesn't describe a single demon? (Please correct me if I am wrong) So how would anyone know one if they saw one? One of these blue skinned gods is named Krishna. Krishna was spiritually conceived (no physical contact) just like Jesus but 3000 years before. Don't you find it striking that another god from another culture was born without intercourse? It's a fair question to ask or do you dismiss this all together as irrelevant or accept as I do that this born without sex theme is not original and has been around for a while?

Continuing the mistake...

Krishna's life was in danger at birth just like Jesus (and Moses) but unlike Jesus, Krishna was raised by foster parents, just like Moses. Irrelevant or recycled? By the way, Moses came 1500 years or so after Krishna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Date_of_the_Exodus I vote recycled.

Similarities don't just happen in religion either, Hollywood does it too! Oh Brother Where Art Thou follows the tale of Homer’s Odyssey very closely (not perfectly). Homer's tale is set in ancient Greece, the Hollywood version is set in the deep south around the 1930s. Can you now see that borrowing themes or ideas is as old as people have been telling stories about one another?

So to summarize my point and hopefully satisfy your misunderstanding, you have to be blind or in willful denial not to see the borrowed themes from other cultures and belief systems in religion. None of the tales in the bible are original. They are composites of much older tales sometimes of stories in the bible itself (compare Jesus and Joseph from Genesis sometime if you haven't already).

I don't know how to "elaborate" more clearly for you perhaps that is truly my mistake.

Your mistake crait, your mistake, is not reading other religious books and educating yourself on the topic at hand.

This last part applies to everyone (not just religion).

It is much easier to openly dismiss than it is to verify for yourself and that is a grave mistake in itself.

so much for DPM's attempt at saying calm down.

honestly tho DPM, I have seen the same spitfire out of que like everyone else, especially in the pm i got from him.


at @ que, no response for you.

[DarkPacMan77]

In private messages, no administrative action will be taken unless a member approaches me about harassment and provides evidence. Que may make a snappy point directed at others but he's very clean with the discussion so far and I know he would want this thread more civil as well, just as we all would.

(at home now )

-DarkPacMan77-

I have seen the same spitfire out of que like everyone else, especially in the pm i got from him.

Really? Quote me then. Remember I still have a copy of the PM and anyone with privileges can read it.

Don't make it seem like I totally cussed you out or insulted you because I didn't. I have seen this game before from another member here and it isn't cool.

I regret wasting effort in communicating with you and trying to find a middle ground.

I now see you weren't worth the effort.

[crait]

The reason I've been repetitive with my rebuttals is because I believe that he is making the same mistake over and over. I believe that this is why others are echoing their viewpoints and reading this thread from the most recent 10 pages, I'd say it would seem like we're being a tad harsh to him because we keep saying the same thing over and over as if we're not even reading his posts.
No disrespect, but that's how I view the situation and I believe that is why others are, too.

No disrespect taken and please none is intended with this next post but I am outside the box yourself and others are in it looking outward (OH and the lid is closed) but it doesn't matter as long as you are happy.

I assume you all have read the bible (seriously read the bible) but I also conclude than none of you have taken any consideration towards other religious works even the so called "Mythologies" which at some point were taken as seriously as Christianity is today. This is why you don't see my points, you lack the foundation that I have which also includes a good dose of world history (it helps more than you think).

For example (an extreme one) I assume you wouldn't touch a Satanic bible because of your fear of what could happen if you did (possession by demons perhaps? Seriously?). I don't have this encumbrance (It's just a stack of paper!) I am not superstitious and I feel that is why you fail to see what I am trying to show all of you.

Some of you conclude that I am an astrologer of sorts; I am not. I couldn't recite a complete zodiac without looking it up just like most of you couldn't name all 10 commandments without looking them up(Let's be honest here). The difference? I don't call myself anything but open minded and a free thinker. That's just a comment not a judgment.

Mostly @ crait:

Allow me to illustrate my entire mistake in a different way.

I know people that pray to gods that have many arms or blue skin. You may even go as far as calling those gods DEMONS (Let that though soak in for a minute....) Do you realize that the bible doesn't describe a single demon? (Please correct me if I am wrong) So how would anyone know one if they saw one? One of these blue skinned gods is named Krishna. Krishna was spiritually conceived (no physical contact) just like Jesus but 3000 years before. Don't you find it striking that another god from another culture was born without intercourse? It's a fair question to ask or do you dismiss this all together as irrelevant or accept as I do that this born without sex theme is not original and has been around for a while?

Continuing the mistake...

Krishna's life was in danger at birth just like Jesus (and Moses) but unlike Jesus, Krishna was raised by foster parents, just like Moses. Irrelevant or recycled? By the way, Moses came 1500 years or so after Krishna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Date_of_the_Exodus I vote recycled.

Similarities don't just happen in religion either, Hollywood does it too! Oh Brother Where Art Thou follows the tale of Homer’s Odyssey very closely (not perfectly). Homer's tale is set in ancient Greece, the Hollywood version is set in the deep south around the 1930s. Can you now see that borrowing themes or ideas is as old as people have been telling stories about one another?

So to summarize my point and hopefully satisfy your misunderstanding, you have to be blind or in willful denial not to see the borrowed themes from other cultures and belief systems in religion. None of the tales in the bible are original. They are composites of much older tales sometimes of stories in the bible itself (compare Jesus and Joseph from Genesis sometime if you haven't already).

I don't know how to "elaborate" more clearly for you perhaps that is truly my mistake.

Your mistake crait, your mistake, is not reading other religious books and educating yourself on the topic at hand.

This last part applies to everyone (not just religion).

It is much easier to openly dismiss than it is to verify for yourself and that is a grave mistake in itself.

Seriously, Que... Do you not read your own posts? You simple babel. I can't say it nicely because that's what you do.
No, you don't make sense when you talk and saying that I'm dumb or that I can't understand because I'm trapped in a jar is really retarded. You simply do not make sense when you type. Sure, there are things that relate- In fact, you can relate anything to anything if you look hard enough. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME OR ARE RELATED.
My cat's name is Jackie. FX plays a show called That 70's Show with a character named Jackie. They both have black hair. They both have two ears. They both are girls. They both have two eyes. They both breathe air. They both live in a house. They both sleep. I could go on with these stupid connections. They are not the same.
I can't be clearer. You connect things that do not connect. You're taking puzzle pieces and trying to shove them together to make a picture that isn't what the puzzle is designed to look like. The pieces won't fit, therefore, you're doing it wrong.

I can't simply say it clearer.

Who says all Christians believe in demons? I know plenty of people that don't but say they're Christians.
I actually don't know what else to say about that because you just babbled. I don't know where you were going with the statements.

And it's not about the paper as much as it is about the message. People who have a Bible that reads it is getting the message while people who have Bibles that don't read them don't get the message. So, if I'm not reading a Satanic Bible and not practicing Satanism, I actually don't fear anything about it because to me, it would be a stack of papers bound together. Just like a Bible would be a stack of papers bound together by someone who doesn't get the message from it.


Your whole point is that Christianity is a faith that's been retold over and over again. How about instead of arguing why Christianity is wrong, you try to talk about why religion is wrong or why 'no religion' is right.

I have seen the same spitfire out of que like everyone else, especially in the pm i got from him.

Really? Quote me then. Remember I still have a copy of the PM and anyone with privileges can read it.

Don't make it seem like I totally cussed you out or insulted you because I didn't. I have seen this game before from another member here and it isn't cool.

I regret wasting effort in communicating with you and trying to find a middle ground.

I now see you weren't worth the effort.

-_- Harsh much? i was just saying, your on the same level as us, not some higher position. im trying to keep it all on the same level.

que you didnt waste your time, you just seamed all smug about yourself when you talked to me. ^ quoted spitfire^

The bible is fun. It's laughing at everyone arguing in this topic as we speak.

-_- Harsh much? i was just saying, your on the same level as us, not some higher position. im trying to keep it all on the same level.

que you didnt waste your time, you just seamed all smug about yourself when you talked to me. ^ quoted spitfire^

Back pedal much? ^turns page^

Your whole point is that Christianity is a faith that's been retold over and over again.

Not just Christianity, many religions including Hinduism and the mythologies like Hellenistic beliefs have been told and retold.

How about instead of arguing why Christianity is wrong, you try to talk about why religion is wrong or why 'no religion' is right.

It's already been debated here on why religion or no religion is right or wrong. You can read it anytime you like but I have moved on. Since those times what I do now is try to show the similarities that many ancient belief systems share with Christianity. But, if you would rather debate the "right or wrong" of religion then bring something to the table.

Most of the people that voted on their religion of choice voted Christian so If I showed similarities between Zeus and Krishna you or someone might say "Who cares" or "I am glad I am Christian" because that's all you can relate to.

If we were born in a different geographic location we may be debating Hinduism instead and feel that Christianity is a silly mythology. Geography is the main deciding factor in the religion that you choose.

I keep repeating I don't know what god is but I know what god is not. Many disagree with me and that is fine. The debate will never be settled until the day we die. I know all of us will be surprised when that day comes.

I just dont want to be called closed moned cuz i dont believe the point you make. I do see very valid points in why you believe in what you do. But U r U and I am ME.

[crait]

Why do the similarities matter so much to you in the first place??
Are you trying to say that we need to get rid of our ancient and inferior ways because atheism is the future? Are you saying that as we evolve and become smarter, we should ditch dumb ideology and look to science for all of the answers??

I just dont want to be called closed minded cuz i dont believe the point you make.

Excellent point.

[brentbizzle]

... we should ditch dumb ideology and look to science for all of the answers??

sorry, had to

Why do the similarities matter so much to you in the first place??
Are you trying to say that we need to get rid of our ancient and inferior ways because atheism is the future? Are you saying that as we evolve and become smarter, we should ditch dumb ideology and look to science for all of the answers??

WOW! Now I see a big part of the problem! First, I am not atheist, that's someone that doesn't believe in a god at all. I am agnostic. I don't know what god is I have told you this before.

The people described in the bible would hear and see things and claim it was god. You know what happens to a person today if they were to claim the same? Sanitarium. I'm not talking about images that some people see on their toast, I mean people claiming to hear a voice in their head telling them to do things like Abraham did when he almost killed Issac, his son.

Why is it different now than it was then? Does anyone here hear (homonym?) a voice that says "Que13x is blaspheming against me, smite him!" I think not and I doubt you or anyone ever will because that isn't how it works. It didn't work that way back then and it doesn't work that way today.

When we were little we believed in Santa Clause because we were told he was real. We read all sorts of books and learned about all the supernatural things that Santa would do. We would go to places and speak to Santa and Santa would answer as best as he could and for a time we believed he was real. No one could convince us otherwise.

Then one day, we realized little things that didn't add up, that We didn't have a chimney or we lived in an Apartment so how did Santa get in? Some of us may have even learned the ugly truth that it was Mom and Dad lying to us about it all along just to get us to behave or worse, Mom and Dad just wanted to be like everyone else and fit in.

To me God isn't Santa, Jesus is Santa. I don't know what god is but I do know I don't need to be threatened with eternal damnation just to be a kind and productive person.

Science doesn't have all the answers I am patient enough to wait until they are discovered or I accept that we may never know.

[crait]

That was a very well read post, Que. Thank you for clearing up your views and getting back to exactly why this thread was started.
I'd like to first start out by saying that I didn't say you were atheist and I think you even mentioned in a few posts that you consider yourself agnostic. I was just saying that a lot of people who claim that they are 'forwarding our age of enlightenment' are doing so by ditching what they consider a primitive ideology that has no room for the future. I was merely asking if you'd rather over analyze things that really have no further meaning and are completely spelled out. In fact, I'd actually consider you to have core Islamic beliefs so in no way am I saying you're against this or you're against that.

You do bring up a good point about how we were easily tricked into believing that Santa existed as children. The only difference between Santa and Jesus is that Jesus was actually around many, many people doing his ol' thang while Santa can't. Yeah, there are Santa dudes at the mall that help add to the allusion but they don't do the 'magic' that their tales tell about while Jesus could.