Official Religion Debate Thread

In case you guys didn't know, when I "assumed" people who don't believe in God have social issues is the same thing as Atheists claiming people who believe in god are too dependent and can't help themselves.
It goes both ways and can't be used acceptably.

In case you guys didn't know, when I "assumed" people who don't believe in God have social issues is the same thing as Atheists claiming people who believe in god are too dependent and can't help themselves.
It goes both ways and can't be used acceptably.

well everyone has social issues....

[ace]

In case you guys didn't know, when I "assumed" people who don't believe in God have social issues is the same thing as Atheists claiming people who believe in god are too dependent and can't help themselves.
It goes both ways and can't be used acceptably.

well everyone has social issues....

Unfortunately, some more than others.

farquezy has mental issues.

^^^^^^^^!?!?!?^^^^^^^^

now now. i broke no rules and SINCE WHEN IS TALKING IN ALL CAPS against the rules? im just making sure to point the obvious to those who cant see it. im sure you can but for the more uh oblivious people they sometimes need big letters.

believe all you want im not here to tell you not to believe in something. i just question it. i question the very moral values of the bible. sure it can be moral in some places like the feel good stories you read to children but i think it teaches terrible values too. demean women, condemn gays, keep slaves, burn witches. its like reading a children story and in the middle "mary had a little lamb but was a hooker, who did heroine, so we gave her the chair." catch my drift? its a terrible book. might have been nice when the times reflected it but now? no. absolutely not. eve was tempted and now women suffer once a month, no female apostles, jesus didnt have a wife, heavenly father, father, father. people are evil so we must beg for forgiveness. and no you cant have two daddy's and if you do well they are probably going to hell.

oh and it lies

Alistor I get what you are saying but I don't know if anyone else does so I will just say this...

Since birth we are told fairy tales and they all had morals (Boy cried wolf, 3 pigs etc) As children we learn our values through these tales. We also get a sense of morals because sometimes it is easier to tell a story than it is to explain how things really are. I think I am with that crowd that knows how things really are and I have an extensive background in religion to thank for it.

Some people need to believe in something to be free others don't and some feel like they have no choice. It is the ones that feel like they have no choice that need to read the posts that upset the true believers.

Everything I have posted is for those that feel bound/obligated to follow the crowd like "Lambs". I want to explain what is written in a way that makes sense in 2008 because the scriptures are written for a 2000 year old civilization to understand.

If you can't let go then don't. There are some people that I would never share the secrets I know with because humanity is better off for it. Others widdle away their lives waiting for a day that may never come in their lifetime and it is for those people that Alistor, FarQ, DPM, myself etc are talking to.

I have learned that no matter how much evidence you put on the table people are going to believe whatever they want. I can't let that bother me and it should not bother anyone else either.

i dont follow a book. neither do i follow laws. i do what i think is right no matter the consequences. the bible has hurt just as many people as its helped it is a bad book.

If God showed himself to people then there is absolutely no point of existing. Much like anything else in the world, life bears meaning in the struggles that we take. It's because of the journey people take towards God that makes it so rewarding in the end.

Things exists via contrast. Without pain, there is no pleasure. Without suffering, there is no comfort. It's illogical to wish for God to come in show his face to everyone and make everything perfect because then we'd become robots and completely numb.

I bet the people who assert that the Bible is just some made up story actually haven't read very much of it. New Testament scholars and historians have confirmed many facts in the bible i.e. roman rulers, geography of an area, names of places, dates etc. The bible speaks about Hittites for example and a while ago there were no discoveries concerning Hittites so people thought that bible erred but it wasn't the case. New information and discoveries were made about the Hittites. Luke is a credited historian, that was his job and he recorded facts like the ones above when writing his gospel as well.

Slick,

If that is what you want to believe then that is your belief.

My belief is that it is hard to believe that god the angels the devil and his demonic legions all agreed not to show themselves at some point at least to modern man. I am no different than Saul except that "Jesus" has yet to show his self to me and as why I persecute him.

As for things existing via contrast yea I agree to a point. A person that obsesses about living worries about dying (so forth) Since we are now discussing eastern religious beliefs I will also go as far as saying that there is no such thing as Karma. That is the only way that I can explain how wicked people keep doing wicked deeds. If in their minds the are not committing wicked acts then how can they be punished?

Much of what has been unearthed in the bible comes from the Old Testament. I don't know of anything in the New Testament that has been verified or discovered. Even the letters used to compile the bible are written in Greek and have been dated to 30+ years after the supposed crucifixion (60-80CE).

I want to add that I have been to Israel and done the pilgrimage. Every supposed holy site there has a church on it and no one is allowed to dig for artifacts to verify or to make discoveries because it would foul its sanctitiy.

I want to throw in that many items that have been found such as The Shroud of Turin have turned out to be fakes.

So we are back to faith. You need it, I don't. Guess we are both happy.

^^^^^^^^!?!?!?^^^^^^^^

now now. i broke no rules and SINCE WHEN IS TALKING IN ALL CAPS against the rules? im just making sure to point the obvious to those who cant see it. im sure you can but for the more uh oblivious people they sometimes need big letters.

believe all you want im not here to tell you not to believe in something. i just question it. i question the very moral values of the bible. sure it can be moral in some places like the feel good stories you read to children but i think it teaches terrible values too. demean women, condemn gays, keep slaves, burn witches. its like reading a children story and in the middle "mary had a little lamb but was a hooker, who did heroine, so we gave her the chair." catch my drift? its a terrible book. might have been nice when the times reflected it but now? no. absolutely not. eve was tempted and now women suffer once a month, no female apostles, jesus didnt have a wife, heavenly father, father, father. people are evil so we must beg for forgiveness. and no you cant have two daddy's and if you do well they are probably going to hell.

oh and it lies

Can you quote where it favors the demeaning of women?
Keeping slaves?
Where does it specifically say Christians should burn witches?

^^^^^^^^!?!?!?^^^^^^^^

now now. i broke no rules and SINCE WHEN IS TALKING IN ALL CAPS against the rules? im just making sure to point the obvious to those who cant see it. im sure you can but for the more uh oblivious people they sometimes need big letters.

believe all you want im not here to tell you not to believe in something. i just question it. i question the very moral values of the bible. sure it can be moral in some places like the feel good stories you read to children but i think it teaches terrible values too. demean women, condemn gays, keep slaves, burn witches. its like reading a children story and in the middle "mary had a little lamb but was a hooker, who did heroine, so we gave her the chair." catch my drift? its a terrible book. might have been nice when the times reflected it but now? no. absolutely not. eve was tempted and now women suffer once a month, no female apostles, jesus didnt have a wife, heavenly father, father, father. people are evil so we must beg for forgiveness. and no you cant have two daddy's and if you do well they are probably going to hell.

oh and it lies

Can you quote where it favors the demeaning of women?
Keeping slaves?
Where does it specifically say Christians should burn witches?

Women

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

Once again God approves of forcible rape.




If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.


"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

Slaves
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

kill witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

other stuff

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)






As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Women

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

Say whaaat? Where in there does God approve rape. This is what I get out of that passage:
God doesn't want the women to teach. This other paragraph states that when you defeat your enemy it is possible to have one of the lady captives as your wife, but only under certain guidelines and regulations. No where in there does it say you can rape your enemies wives, any any sense.

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Old testament

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

This doesn't demean women, you and I know that the male is suppose to protect his family.

Slaves
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

I already went over all of this with you, master means employer. And the Old Testament isn't relevant.

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

kill witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

other stuff

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

It doesn't say anything in there about burning witches? Who would have known.





As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
[/quote]
http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal ... n1elma.htm

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

And that is a bad thing? also Old Testament.

I was really hoping alistor would answer because I fear he knew nothing of what he was talking about in the Bible.

lol i love how you try to make since of these....
its completely useless, you asked for it, i gave it to you, yet you deny it.

I'll explain it. You say that God condones all of us in this present time to do all this stuff. You think he wants Christians to kill witches, and everything RIGHT NOW. The Old Testament was a work that was meant for the people of THAT time. The New Testament is suppose to be the basis of the new times.

But please explain why this----------------------

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

----------------Means God approves of forcible rape.

The Old Testament was a work that was meant for the people of THAT time. The New Testament is suppose to be the basis of the new times.

I disagree.

Old Testament:

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers and the flowers fall but the word of our God stands forever."
Psalms 119:89 Your word, O LORD, is eternal it stands firm in the heavens.

New Testament:

Mathew 24:35 & Luke 21:33 : Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
1 Peter 1:24-25 For all men are like grass and all their glory is like the flowers of the field the grass withers and the flowers fall but the word of the Lord stands forever.


As you can see both the new and old testaments are in accordance. These passages clearly state that the word of god never changes, that it is "eternal" and stands for all time, forever.

I also disagree that a 2000 year old document written in the iron age applies to the people of the computer/space age.