So obamas president now

[JustinWoodypond]

I don't understand that how I'm Persian means that I lived in Iran. My family is from there, so don't go around spouting things you don't know.

Here is what I know:

If you never lived in Iran then you aren't Persian. I don't care where your parents or grandparents are from. I know so many people that claim to be Italian but don't speak the language or have never been near Italy that it's a joke. Bottom line, IF you were born on American soil you are American, end of story. I don't understand why people insist on carrying on traditions from their "home" countries when they seem content in the one they are in, that goes for everybody.

Yea yea yea America is the melting pot made up of different cultures but here is where we tend to forget our history.
When the English settled here they encountered the indians. Those people were made up of many different cultures too. Now you tell me how many are left? Divided we fall, A house divided can not stand. This is where I am coming from and that is my point on diverse cultures. America has it's own culture just like every country on earth does. No one is forced into being American, in fact you can give up your citizenship at any time.

I have acknowledged somewhere on this board that Iran is probably one of the most stable and powerful countries in the middle east capable of producing in the range of a million uniformed soldiers at a moments notice. This fact alone makes Iran something to consider with extreme caution. I state facts and show where I get my info most of the time. If I have ever stated anything wrong about Iran it wasn't because I made it up.

I would say I am an authority at least on this board on the CIA and it's monumental F'ups. I eluded to that in my post before this one. If you think I am attacking "Persians" or the Iranian people then you need to read my words more carefully.

Anyhow, None of what I stated was intended to imply that Iran and its people needed to be wiped from the map or was a direct threat to the US. I just wanted to stick to the facts that Iran wants a nuclear weapon and attaining a nuclear power plant would be a way to attain materials for such a project and that Iran sponsors groups that are considered by the UN and other countries to be terrorist organizations. If this is incorrect then let's set the record straight once and for all.

OBVIOUSLY I have never set foot in Iran I don't have anything against it's people or culture. I just don't think that if Iran did get "the bomb" that it would keep it to itself based on the fact that Iran supplies arms to many groups in the middle east including insurgents in Iraq. Iran provides arms to it's interests and can not be trusted to keep a nuclear weapon to its self. That is the point of bringing this up and why Iran is even in the headlines. It is obvious that if Iran acted directly that there would be hell to pay but has anyone considered if Iran acts indirectly?

If Ahmedinejad didn't say he intended to enrich uranium then please set the record straight.
If he didn't order thousands of centrifuges for the purpose of enriching uranium then please set the record straight.

If anyone hailing from Iran wants to defend that please go right ahead but let's not twist the issue and take/make it personal ok?

Well I speak Farsi fluently and celebrate more Middle Eastern holidays than I do American. So I don't know how that doesn't make me Persian. To each their own I guess.

Man im sick of hearing all this " IM PERSIAN" "I'M BLACK" "I'M WHITE" "I'M AMERICAN" "IM LATINO" crap
Why cant we just say " I'm a human being just like you" and end the discussion...

I hate how we the people embrace our differences rather then our similarities and how we always fail to understand we are all humans, that we are not gays, lesbians, conservatives, blacks, whites, middle easterns, or any other crap that is put there on purpose just to cause conflict and never allow us humans to unite.

Man im sick of hearing all this " IM PERSIAN" "I'M BLACK" "I'M WHITE" "I'M AMERICAN" "IM LATINO" crap
Why cant we just say " I'm a human being just like you" and end the discussion...

I hate how we the people embrace our differences rather then our similarities and how we always fail to understand we are all humans, that we are not gays, lesbians, conservatives, blacks, whites, middle easterns, or any other crap that is put there on purpose just to cause conflict and never allow us humans to unite.

I guess this is exactly what I tried/wanted to say but not in so many words.

The beauty of this country is that we as citizens have the freedom (at least for now) to celebrate or assimilate whatever culture we embrace. On the surface this is great but using an extreme example here look at the gangs in LA, the crips and the bloods. These people literally live in the same city and even share schools but just because this person or that person lives across the street you can't associate with them? I see this happening on a national scale with other groups and I won't mention names here because it WILL get taken out of context but I am sure we all can come up with examples on our own.

Bringing this conversation back on topic... Is it just me or was the last election really nasty? It seemed that people the majority of the people chose sides and did nasty things to each other just because they differed in opinion on who should be president. Even today people are still bitter because a young Democratic Harvard graduate has become president. I think Obama's skin color should be irrelevant. I wonder how long it will take for people to move on and judge a person by what they can control and that is their accomplishments. An even better question should be how long before a non Democrat or Republican candidate becomes president.

[crait]

Man im sick of hearing all this " IM PERSIAN" "I'M BLACK" "I'M WHITE" "I'M AMERICAN" "IM LATINO" crap
Why cant we just say " I'm a human being just like you" and end the discussion...

People do say that.
They also have pride in what their ancestor's did and who they were just like your great grandchildren will for you.
I hate when people have little race wars too but taking away race won't do anything.
I'm proud of my parents and grandparents.
And even further back.
Maybe you should too.

[crait]

If you never lived in Iran then you aren't Persian. I don't care where your parents or grandparents are from. I know so many people that claim to be Italian but don't speak the language or have never been near Italy that it's a joke. Bottom line, IF you were born on American soil you are American, end of story. I don't understand why people insist on carrying on traditions from their "home" countries when they seem content in the one they are in, that goes for everybody.

I'm American.
If I go out to ocean and my wife has her child in the middle of the Atlantic, what nationality is my child given that my wife is American?
I certainly hope my child's not considered to be Atlantian because I intend on going back home after the trip into the water.
And just because you were born on American soil doesn't mean you're American at heart.
What if someone is on a trip from Canada to China. He's on a business trip for a while and his wife is pregnant. Before arriving at China, the plane makes a stop in San Fransisco. Just when they touch down, the woman goes into labour. Grant it, the couple have never been to America before this. What nationality would you consider this baby? Canadian because that's where the parent's are from? American because the baby was born in America? What about China? The baby is going to spend the first few months of its life there. Is it Chinese? Your logic is futile and very contradicting.
The point I'm making is that there's three factors; where you're born, where you live, and where your parents are from. Each can weigh in differently.
Let's say you lived in America all your life and you move to South Africa. Are you African or American?
Well, you'd be a resident of Africa, therefore you're African. But you originate from America. You're American too.
You're American African.

If I go out to ocean and my wife has her child in the middle of the Atlantic, what nationality is my child given that my wife is American?

Your child would be the nationality of wherever the plane lands. Unless you land in a territory currently governed by England or end up on US property overseas such as a territory or a military base. Assuming you do not land in a "friendly" territory the child may have dual citizenship until it turns 18 at which point the child must decide which nation to assimilate with.

just because you were born on American soil doesn't mean you're American at heart.

True this is a problem and contributes to the national erosion that is occurring at least in America.

What if someone is on a trip from Canada to China. He's on a business trip for a while and his wife is pregnant. Before arriving at China, the plane makes a stop in San Fransisco. Just when they touch down, the woman goes into labour.

The child would be an American citizen. Perhaps even dual citizenship with Canada but American for certain.

Let's say you lived in America all your life and you move to South Africa. Are you African or American?

It doesn't matter where you live it matters where you are born. You can become a legalized citizen of whatever nation in Africa you choose; you only need to ask permission from the country you wish to have citizenship from.

I don't make these rules up this is how I understand The US constitution and a few other immigration laws.

IF I were in Africa I would try to be African. Whatever nation I go to I try to be like the people of that nation, it's only polite and respectful. Imagine if you went to [whatever nation] and threw around your culture all over the place. Do you think the locals would appreciate it? I wouldn't think so because it is rude. They can look at you and tell you aren't a local there is no need to underscore this fact.

There is a street gang called MS13 and from what I understand it was founded in the 80s when Central American refugees sought asylum in America. Large groups of refugees displaced locals and changed communities to their own liking (rude). The locals felt as if the refugees were taking over and lashed out violently. So the refugees banded together in groups for protection and voila MS13 was eventually born. The worse part is that now you have two groups butting heads instead of working together in a civil and respectful manner.

An olde saying "When in Rome do as the Romans".

There is a lot to be learned from the past.

[DarkPacMan77]

I think how the woman/ child issue would be settled is that the baby would be a United States citizen at first, however, the parents can sign paperwork and have it reviewed by a judge to grant citizenship of the child back to the mother country.

-DarkPacMan77-

[crait]

I think that's really screwy that you think that just because someone is born somewhere means they belong to that country.
I mean, if I was born in China and was only there for 3 whole minutes my entire life, you would consider me Chinese yet you say...

If you never lived in Iran then you aren't Persian. I don't care where your parents or grandparents are from. I know so many people that claim to be Italian but don't speak the language or have never been near Italy that it's a joke. Bottom line, IF you were born on American soil you are American, end of story. I don't understand why people insist on carrying on traditions from their "home" countries when they seem content in the one they are in, that goes for everybody.

Which is it?
Do you base people on where they live or where they're born?


PWN

[brentbizzle]

que13x, have you even lived in a foreign country?

There is a huge difference between respecting a culture and adopting one. You stated that if you lived here or there you would act exactly like the locals do. That means you are abandoning your own culture in doing so, which is not necessary. I'm American, and I've spent over 2 years living in Japan. Do I act Japanese? HELL NO! Am I disrespecting Japanese culture and making Japanese people feel uncomfortable? No again... (well, maybe when I have a little to much to drink ).

You also mentioned people that were born and raised in America that haven't been to the country of their forefathers. The fact is some people ARE different. They may not speak the language or have traveled to that country, but they have adopted some parts of that distant culture that are very much relevant and set them apart from the average white American. Yes, when you go generation after generation you are bound to shed the original culture and then it is pointless to say I'm this or that... but you cannot make a blanket statement that if you are born in America that your home culture does not exist or is irrelevant.

[crait]

Brent's got the right ideas.
Unlike Brent's opinion, I really, really find that offensive that you think one must assimilate to the customs and culture that one lives in.
If I move somewhere, I'm not going to forget about America or the American ways of living.
I hate how people in Texas are always like, "I hate them there Mexicans. If you cross the border and take our jobs, you need to speak English. Don't teach your children Spanish or they'll go to Hell." or whatever it is that they say. America has no official language and supports many, many different languages.
English needs to be treated as equal. My little brother hates Spanish music and told my mom once that he wished there was a place where they didn't have any Spanish radio stations. I found that really, really mean because people deserve to have radio stations in any language they want.
America is the Great Melting Pot. Remember that next time you want to Westernize any Easterners or you want to Americanize any tourists.

(I was hoping this would have been over but if there is an interest in continuing on never let it be said that I quit!)

It's simple,

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Many people don't realize that America is dividing itself along political lines and racial lines and economic lines social lines(gay) etc. The government is partially to blame when it releases statistical data based on race or social class. It is the classic divide and conquer or so it looks like to me. It happened in India for example when the British annexed Pakistan and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. It happened in America when indigenous tribes were set against one another in an effort to conquer the west. It has happened in many places throughout history.

What I am trying to say is that we need to put our differences aside and come together as one nation one people and let go of these petty groups because as long as we are divided into groups we will always accomplish less than we could together. I am not talking globally I just mean nationally. There is nothing wrong with doing trade with other nations but there is something wrong if it changes what your country is. Does this make sense? So much focus is put on how we are different that we rarely think about how much we have in common.

Which reminds me, I am not asking for new laws or anything but I shouldn't have to learn a new language in my home country just to be able to get by. Anyone disagree? It is almost like I am visiting my own country! There is absolutely NO incentive for many immigrants to learn the common language, none what so ever. I am not talking about the people that visit and then leave after a few days or weeks I am referring to the people that stay for YEARS! Do you think it ridiculous that there are immigrants that have lived in a country for decades and they have no grasp of the common language? (sory no speke nglish)

Anyone notice or care that everything we buy now seems to be in at least 3 languages? This is ok at the airport but at Wal-Mart? Anyone notice or care that now we have options on phone menus for whatever language we feel most comfortable speaking in?

Where I live there are 3 TV stations that broadcast 24 hours a day in some language other than English. Is it too much to ask of these immigrants to learn the common language of the country that they have chosen to live in? Is it the responsibility of the host nation to cater to them by hiring translators and revising official forms for them? Am I a terrible person for suggesting such a thing? When you invite someone to your house do you rearrange the furniture and take down or put up pictures for them?

Obama is expected to be a great president (trying to keep it on topic), time will tell but I keep hearing how this is such a milestone for blacks when it really isn't or shouldn't be. This language isn't appropriate in this day and age. It creates an US vs THEM mentality. If you think I am wrong then why do so many people that like Obama worry about whether or not he will live long enough to run for reelection? I mean yea racism exists even today but not on the level that it did in the past. I don't think it is fair to associate this mans accomplishments with his skin color especially when his campaign ran on a message of national unity. I think it is a terrible thing that people voted for president based on the color of skin or even worse, accuse someone of being racist for supporting the other candidate.

I stand by everything I have said and if you guys can't understand me then either I am not capable of expressing my thoughts or I suspect you have bought into a system of thought that will eventually be your undoing.


(For those that are wondering)
List of places outside of the U.S. in which I have spent 72 hours or more:

Panama
Mexico
Dominican Republic
Puerto Rico
St. John
St. Croix
St. Thomas
Bermuda
Spain
England
Germany
France
Italy
Greece
Crete
Turkey
Israel

I am sure I have left a couple out but you get the point.

[crait]

I do agree with you that releasing senseless data about demographics does help prevent cultural and racial fusion in this country, but I do not believe it can or will lead to such things as what happened in the past. What happened in the West was wrong. Pitting tribes against each other is one of the lowest things I've heard of in American culture. I don't know which is worse, though: When the government pitted the tribes against each other or when the government gathered all of the Japanese and Japanese descendants from the entire country and moved them into a small city in the middle of no-where for no good, strong reason.
I believe the lack of cultural acceptance caused these things to happen, not people expressing and praising their culture.
Different cultures can coexist peacefully, but not whenever the cultures and views of the cultures are not allowed to be expressed or are neglected to be looked at by the other members of the area.

You're completely right too when you say that we need to set our differences aside to become better workers and better people, but we shouldn't completely forget about our differences.
Our differences make us unique from everyone else. If you take away those differences, everyone will be dull and diversity in intelligence will decrease and therefore, our efficiency will decrease. This would lead to a decrease in overall American productivity and America will fail.
There was a book about a utopia where everyone was exactly the same in all areas. If someone stood out in anyway, they would wear a handicap. The main characters of the book were watching television and a program was on about bale dancers. They all had to wear these awful machines so that they danced just as bad as everyone else and they had to have ropes tied into their bodies so they weren't nimble or agile like everyone else. They also wore disgusting and hideous masks to hide how pretty they wore. The persons watching television apparently were geniuses or something because every time they watched the program, a gizmo in their head would beep and distract them from thinking ingeniously.
This is a complete exaggeration, but whenever the government is required to keep everyone the same, then we must all be as strong, pretty, intelligent as the weakest link.
You can take this as a hyperbole but this the main gist of "setting differences aside" if we forget about what makes us [i]us.[i]

I even agree with you when you say that it's absurd that a people speaking Spanish in America don't want to learn English but really, that's their problem. I can't make them learn it because they don't have to learn English.
I know how upset people get whenever they go to the store and talk to the cashier and the cashier doesn't know what they're talking about because they don't speak English but really, it's the employer's fault for letting someone work their that drives away business or doesn't help people as much as other people that were applying for the job.
If the employer only employs emigrants because they will work for less, then it's really your problem for going to the place.
Go to a different store or find another person working their.
I know you weren't wanting a law passed to make everyone learn English, but I was just throwing it out there since I was on the subject already.

Well, I don't think you're a bad person because the idea of individuality and the wall of language frustrates you, but I do not think it's something that we should have to do. Why should we have to get them to learn English if it's easier doing it the way we're doing it now?
And of course when I make arrangements I clean up my house a little bit if it's dirty and sometimes I cook something special for my company. I don't go to the extreme like you're talking about, but I do treat my guests right. If my cousins are spending the night, I actually do rearrange the furniture so I can pull out the couch into a bed for them. I remember sleeping at my great grandparent's house when I was young and they had some really, really creepy clown paintings hanging up right beside the bed I slept in. If I had something like that up, I'd take it down if my cousins were spending the night and I knew it scared them.


And no, no one really cares that we have stuff printed in many languages. It helps a lot more people have access to the items they're buying and it doesn't take much more effort. Plus, more people buy the product. It's better for the consumer and producer. It's a win-win.

And you know what grinds my gears?
People are saying that this is a great milestone for blacks. No it's not. They're regular people like you and I. They do great things everyday. How much better can they get? They're equal to all the other colors of skins.
People do fear, as do I, that he will get assassinated because, well, face it, there's a lot of sick, sick people in this country.

I don't think it is fair to associate this mans accomplishments with his skin color especially when his campaign ran on a message of national unity. I think it is a terrible thing that people voted for president based on the color of skin or even worse, accuse someone of being racist for supporting the other candidate.

This is a perfect little paragraph right here. Fully portrays my opinions on the matter.

[brentbizzle]

That's one of the few serious posts I've seen crait post... haha.

Anyway, when I said live in another country, I meant actually live... about a month or more. I've traveled before, and traveling to a foreign country is leaps and bounds different from living there. Even the circumstances of what brings you there will change your experience.

In any case, I think it is wrong for any government to tell you what you must do. You realize how few foreigners would be here in Japan if the government forced people to learn Japanese to come here? Crait hit the nail on the head. If employers hire people that don't speak English, then it's their problem. Don't get mad at the worker... they've done nothing wrong!

And going to the foreign TV station comment... what's wrong with providing TV channels in the 2nd most common language in America? They aren't taking English channels away to do so. It's not affecting you in any way shape or form. TV is more than just language... it's about culture too. I can watch TV in Japanese and understand at least half, usually most. But I don't like it. Culturally, TV between the states and Japan is completely different, and for the most part I'm not entertained when I watch Japanese TV.

Yes, America needs to be more unified, but we can't do that by trying to ELIMINATE differences between us. We do it through RESPECT of our differences. What makes some of the most oppressive governments so terrible is that they do not accept differences. Ostracism of people doesn't directly lead to problems either. (Since I know Japan I'll bring up another example) Here, people of Korean dissent cannot become Japanese citizens. My friend was born in Japan. Both of her parents were born in Japan and none of them speak Korean. But because her grandparents are Korean she is forced to hold a Korean passport. Do you see Koreans suicide bombing Japanese shrines?

I am glad to see people taking the topic seriously and taking the time to read and reply. This is good and I hope others care enough to weigh in.

The fact is that what we are talking about is not an easy topic to discuss but it needs to be addressed.

Of course I don't want the government dictating how I or we should live our lives. Without culture we would be gray. It is difficult to express exactly how I feel without sounding like a hater which I am not so I will just put it like this.

If I had a cousin come over I guess I would pull out an extra bed or something for them but this is family. Perhaps my analogy would be better expressed if I said your cousin comes over and decides to rearrange the house to his liking. Perhaps this is ok with you after all you are cousins but let's suppose you aren't. What I am talking about is the equivalent of someone coming in your room essentially uninvited and moving everything around to their liking without asking. That is how it feels to me.

All I am asking for is a little respect. I give it by smiling and being polite but more often than not the same isn't returned.

Here is just one of many examples that has occurred to me:

I was in a Petsmart and this lady had her dogg there. The dogg was pissing on the floor (can I say pissing?) and I was trying to tell her that her dog was pissing on the floor I assume she did not speak English because she did her best to ignore me and walked away with a contorted face and leaving a really nasty slip hazard for some unsuspecting person to encounter. This was foul at the highest levels! I could guess where she was from with some accuracy but that detail is irrelevant. I suppose that in her country owners are not in the habit of cleaning up after their pets but in this country IT IS THE LAW for everyone and all I am asking is that people behave accordingly wherever they are, I know I try to.

I don't lump all immigrants into one category so I also expect them to do the same for the people of the country in which they are visiting but more often than not stereotypes eventually surface.

I think that if people from the outside made more of an effort to be like the people from the inside then there would be less problems and I don't think that the government should play a large role in this other than to keep known criminals out of the country. This is ultimately where I am coming from with my post.

On a side note, Recently I met a man in a parking lot while shopping. I asked him where he was from because I could not place his looks (I am usually pretty good at this) He said he was middle eastern I said to him "the middle east is a BIG area. Where from in the middle east?" He hesitated for a moment and said "Iraq". I put out my hand and said "Welcome to America".

[brentbizzle]

dang, past my 1337 post and didn't even realize. Oh well. The thing is, you are going to run into a**holes from all countries and cultures. Every day I see Japanese people going against social norms... a good number of people. Oh, and think Japanese people are polite and inherit a polite culture? Spend 5 minutes in a subway station. Will totally change your perspective.

I see where you were going with the cousin analogy, and for a culture to be changed that dramatically or for someone to be breaking social norms that badly, then yes, we have a problem. But for the most part outside influence helps cultures change and become progressive. I think we can all agree that men and women should be equal. Without outside influence though, most of the world would still be oppressing women. I know this is a big example to give, but big parts of some cultures have been erased with this simple move, especially in Asian cultures. On the cultural front, these people have lost a lot, but I think in the end we can all say the ends justify the means.

There are points where it does go too far and it becomes a dilution of the culture. The whole point of international travel is to either see new lands or experience new cultures. That's why we must respect and celebrate our differences in America instead of getting people to conform on multiple levels. Do I think people should be able to speak English to be here? For the most part, yes. Do I think it should be a requirement? No... There are a multitude of reasons that bring people to different countries. I think learning that country's language should not be a requirement. If the person wants to learn the language, they will encounter their own motivation; whether it be self motivation or to improve their quality of life.

We really need to place the blame on the appropriate person. You go to a store and encounter a worker that doesn't speak English very well. Then your beef is with the store, not the employee. Obviously their skill level was appropriate to be hired, and if you have a problem with the worker then you have a problem with that store's policies. Obviously misconduct is another issue, but you get the point.