Official Religion Debate Thread

This is how I feel Que's Post to relation are Now this is my own view on how i think the thread is going with the "similarities" but what ever think what you want

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JnDY2Gv5YQ

Watch from 5:15-6:48

[ace]

This is how I feel Que's Post to relation are Now this is my own view on how i think the thread is going with the "similarities" but what ever think what you want

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JnDY2Gv5YQ

Watch from 5:15-6:48

Whose doing the lieing? "ARIANS! ARIANS! HOLY S**T!"

Thats funny stuff.

I had fun watching that. John Stewart is Hilarious.

did you click the Oreilly ONE!??!!?!?!?

*and now im a spider*

This is how I feel Que's Post to relation are Now this is my own view on how i think the thread is going with the "similarities" but what ever think what you want

I think you are over simplifying my meaning. With that said, Stuart is a good comedian.

The only different between Santa and Jesus is that Jesus was actually around many, many people doing his ol' thang while Santa can't.

How do you know, because the bible says so? Those many many people that you mentioned didn't bother to write a single letter at the time it was happening and tell anyone of the wonderful things Jesus was doing. No one bothered to write down anything until roughly 65AD at the earliest and that is a speculative date at best. The Roman Catholic Church estimates the gospels were likely written down around 120AD That means there were no witnesses to the ministry alive when the books were written! How convenient. With no one to collaborate the record anything could have been written and likely was.

Our government is modeled after the Roman system. If our government keeps thorough records you can bet the Romans did too.

In the gospels it is written that Jesus trashed the temple by his self! That action alone would be as disruptive and talked about as walking into a bank or a school with a gun today. Is there any mention of it in any other historical record? Nope. Not one. Has a warrant for the arrest of Jesus been found? No. How about imprisonment records? No. Processing? NO. Execution orders? Again no. The soldiers that came for Jesus didn't even know what Jesus looked like. That's why Judas had to kiss Jesus to identify him. If Jesus had done all these wonderful things why didn't the soldiers know what Jesus looked like? Did Jesus trash the temple at night? NO! There were plenty of people that saw Jesus trash the temple among other things and should have known what Jesus looked like in that time.

Every single artifact attributed to Jesus has been proven a forgery. There are no historical sources outside the gospels (that were written decades after Jesus was executed) that I know of that go into any detail about the life of Jesus. If you know of any that are independent of the gospels please share with me. I am interested.

Take the case of Spartacus a slave that started a revolt 100 years before Jesus was born. There are multiple historic sources for this story and yet there aren't any historic sources(outside the bible) for the person that performed miracles, walked on water and disrupted the temple where the money changers were.

The comparison is like saying because there are movies, toys games and books about Hogwarts that it must have existed. No one would dare believe in Potter today as a historic figure but who knows perhaps in 2000 years people will.

sparticus? are you aware they believed in gods and miracles that never happened? that thats all stories.

they "miracles" arent there because they didnt happen.

[DarkPacMan77]

sparticus? are you aware they believed in gods and miracles that never happened? that thats all stories.

they "miracles" arent there because they didnt happen.

You can't say that without providing proof as to the miracles that you believe happened.

-DarkPacMan77-

[crait]

Can someone prove to me that Beethoven existed?

Can someone prove to me that Beethoven existed?

Let's go to Austria and dig up his bones. You pay the airfare, I'll bring the shovel.

[crait]

Can someone prove to me that Beethoven existed?

Let's go to Austria and dig up his bones. You pay the airfare, I'll bring the shovel.

Just because we dig up some bones, that doesn't mean that they weren't planted there or are someone else's remains.

We could get a forensic anthropologist once we get his skull and compare the face with the paintings. (I'll look one up, you pay him.)

When we get his bones we can compare DNA with his descendants (Beethoven had a nephew).

Or

We could find his birth certificate we have a solid date for his birth, 16 December 1770
Baptism certificate we have a solid date for that, 17 December 1770.
Death Certificate we have a solid date for that, 26 March 1827.

Those dates can be compared to the tombstone and the documents.

Beethoven also put pen to paper so he left something behind that we can touch. http://www.waltonian.com/2.3799/original-beethoven-manuscript-found-at-palmer-1.448434

*EDIT*
I have been corrected, Beethoven had a nephew not a son.

[crait]

Well, all the papers could easily be forged and the paintings could be of the impostor.
I still don't see any evidence pointing to him existing.
Maybe if we had every second of his life captured on camera- But that would be absurd because video recordings can be faked/altered.

Did you miss the part about facial reconstruction of the bones and comparing DNA to survivors?

I know what you are trying to say and no matter what I bring you will just deny it because you can.

It's like this, Jesus is said to have been the Jewish savior However, Hebrew teachings NEVER specified that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. In fact the very idea is alien to Jewish expectations of who the Messiah would be.

There is nothing in the Jewish sacred books to suggest that the Messiah or anyone else was, or was to be, born of a virgin, it's a physical impossibility! The idea of a virgin birth or that a god could impregnate a mortal woman (Hercules) is completely PAGAN, in other words not Jewish but like that of the Greek or Roman beliefs of which we are assured never existed.

But I guess you can't see that because you can't see the countless other things that Jesus has in common with these pagan beliefs.

By the way, have a nice Easter.

[JustinWoodypond]

I would chime in, but que has basically said everything I would say, so I will continue to follow the thread from behind the curtains.

[DarkPacMan77]

crait, why are trying to prove the existence of something you can't prove by comparing Jesus to someone like Beethoven in regards to physical evidence that either existed. I think that's entirely foolish to do. So we, right now, can't 100% show you that Beethoven ever existed (or would have any reason to)... but that, however, does not solidify that Jesus Christ ever existed and it doesn't mean that we have "faith" that Beethoven existed.

I could ask you to cite examples of Jesus Christ's life on Earth and you'd give examples which could never even come CLOSE to being proven, and if you can, by all means do, but when you ask us to prove examples of Beethoven's life on Earth... I mean... geez. How many hundreds and hundreds of physical documents can be brought forth and each with more "circumstantial" evidence than The Bible? I say Beethoven wrote 9 full-length symphonies to be played by orchestra and you could tell me that Jesus cured a man's blindness. So tell me, who has more actual proof to at least how plausible Beethoven's existence is when compared to Jesus.

It's a non-argument. I can prove that your point is meaningless. Watch.

DPM: I think Jesus never existed because it can't be proven.
crait: I think he did. What makes you think Beethoven existed?
DPM: I don't think he existed. I guess that makes my point.

^ I mean, that little conversation is how this could have been said but I know that both myself as well as Q are not ignorant enough to believe that Beethoven didn't exist. He did. It can be proven, but neither him nor myself can prove it ourselves and if we could, what relevance would it have in this thread? Stop talking about dead musicians.

-DarkPacMan77-

[crait]

Because Beethoven existed.
That's the point.
I can use your logic to show you that he didn't just like you could with anyone. Therefore, it's not reliable.
The logic you're using can be applied to Jesus and of course you wouldn't think he existed.
I could use the logic on Abraham Lincon and come out with the result of him not existing.
No one could have existed with your logic. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I guess, you can never have the proof that you're looking for if you're never open your eyes to see the proof that is all around you. Just like if I deny all proof given about Beethoven, he won't exist to me.


By the way, the theories about Beethoven that are floating around don't say that he had children or was ever married. I don't know where Que is getting that idea from. Maybe he's been reading too much about Aphrodite.