Official Religion Debate Thread

[crait]

Did you miss the part about facial reconstruction of the bones and comparing DNA to survivors?

I know what you are trying to say and no matter what I bring you will just deny it because you can.

It's like this, Jesus is said to have been the Jewish savior However, Hebrew teachings NEVER specified that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. In fact the very idea is alien to Jewish expectations of who the Messiah would be.

There is nothing in the Jewish sacred books to suggest that the Messiah or anyone else was, or was to be, born of a virgin, it's a physical impossibility! The idea of a virgin birth or that a god could impregnate a mortal woman (Hercules) is completely PAGAN, in other words not Jewish but like that of the Greek or Roman beliefs of which we are assured never existed.

But I guess you can't see that because you can't see the countless other things that Jesus has in common with these pagan beliefs.

By the way, have a nice Easter.

You're right. I will deny anything you say about Beethoven because I can. It's what you're doing so why can't I?
Beethoven didn't exist because there is no proof.

Now, on another note.... If you say that something happened to Jesus that wasn't foretold and that means he isn't the 'Messiah' then you're never going to find the 'Messiah' even if you believe that there will be one for the simple fact that not everything in the 'Messiah''s life has been told.
The 'Messiah''s whole life wasn't foretold and I think his birth is just one of the smaller miracles and acts of God that doesn't necessarily mean as much as the other miracles Jesus performed. That was just to prove to Mary and Joseph that he was the 'Messiah.' And it being impossible is why God chose that way to work his miracle! To prove that Jesus was the 'Messiah.'

[JustinWoodypond]

Because Beethoven existed.
That's the point.
I can use your logic to show you that he didn't just like you could with anyone. Therefore, it's not reliable.
The logic you're using can be applied to Jesus and of course you wouldn't think he existed.
I could use the logic on Abraham Lincon and come out with the result of him not existing.
No one could have existed with your logic. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I guess, you can never have the proof that you're looking for if you're never open your eyes to see the proof that is all around you. Just like if I deny all proof given about Beethoven, he won't exist to me.

There are thousands of examples of Beethoven existing. There are hardly any records of Jesus Christ's existence other than the Bible. How can you say that their logic is flawed? For a messiah who performed miracles like the Bible says, does it not strike you as odd that there are no records other than biblical scripture?

[crait]

The Bible was not written by one person. It's a lot of information pulled together. Like an encyclopedia.
I find it odd that people are forgetting that.


JustinWoodypond, please show me some proof that he did exist. Don't link me to a Wiki, either. That is just opinion based. And don't show me his remains because that's just an impostor's. And don't show me his birth records because those could have been forged. Don't show me his old house because it's just a regular house that people just make believe that he lives there.

[DarkPacMan77]

No, crait, your references to dead musicians who have a documented life on Earth and work to prove it and even a corpse that can be dug up and analyzed for DNA with direct descendants is only making your point weaker and weaker and it's to the point where it's honestly quite stupid to be saying what you're saying.

You tell Justin not to show a body, not to show a birth record, not to show a documented residence where he lived... why? You say so because that could all be faked.

Ok, The Bible was faked. You can't show me what people witnessed Jesus walking on water. You can't show me their birth records. You CAN show me a birth record of "Jesus" and even "Jesus Christ" as it's not an uncommon name... even "Christ" or "Christopher" or "Christus" with various spellings could all be "Jesus", but I don't have to believe any of that because you can't even show me a grave or any proof of his work. You can't tell me the name and show me the birth record of a man who had his blindness cured or document ANY viable information AT ALL to prove Jesus Christ existed other than The Bible. I prefer to use more than one source when gathering my research, but maybe that's old-fashioned.

However, if you choose to believe that there is one God, and that God is your savior under the religion of Christianity then you must be familiar that there is only one God and nobody has the power of "God" or any power of any "Jesus Christ" persona... but even The Bible contradicts this notion! So why base your opinion on a man with "God-like" abilities, shall we say, when it claims that there is one God and that there shall not be the worshipping of others or idols and the like when in Matthew 14:22-33 it explicitly is stated that Peter, under direction of Jesus, stepped out of his boat and walked on water just like Jesus did.

And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.” And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:22-33).

Ok, so now you respond with, "well duh, he's Jesus! Obviously Jesus gave him the ability to do so!". And I respond with, ok, if it's so easy to explain by just saying, "Jesus is the answer" then why is it so hard to find any documentation that doesn't contradict itself when you're trying to make a point?

To be brutally honest, your whole theory about dead musicians is a farce and holds no water. I can't prove Beethoven ever truly existed but it's possible. I can't prove my Grandfather existed to you at this very moment in time but it's possible. You can't prove to me or anyone else that Jesus ever existed because it's impossible so you're coming up with an impossible scenario just to try and make your point and it's not working. Beethoven can be linked genetically to his son. It can happen. It's 100% plausible and at least "80% highly likely" that he "existed" whether you choose to ignore the records of his life or not. I, however, am not ignoring the life of Jesus Christ and just saying "it didn't exist" just "to say no". I am saying he didn't exist, never lived, never performed miracles, and only exists as we know him today as part of an ancient story to tell how the Earth's position in accordance with stars, constellations, and most importantly the Sun play a key role in determining our seasons on Earth and that the story of Jesus Christ is repeated throughout history in different languages/ cultures so often (and predating Christianity by thousands of years) because this information was made available so many ages ago. My reasoning for this becoming a bigger trend is for population control where stories are made up about relatively recognizable characters (John, Mary, Jesus etc.) by people in power politically to give hope and provide an angle of social control and dominance over people that believed what they created. Read up on Constantine.

Now, before you go on calling me a Christianity basher or anything equally retarded, I can go through page by page, annotation by annotation, and event by event in almost every "modern" version and older version(s) of almost EVERY holy book ever made and find nearly infinite examples as to why THEIR God is not true. I'm mentioning Christian examples and Christianity in general because that's the God that most people here have allowed themselves to believe is true while choosing to believe that everyone else is 100% wrong out of blind faith.

-DarkPacMan77-

I was wrong about Beethoven having a son. He had a nephew which he treated like a son. That was my confusion. I corrected my error but wish someone else caught it sooner.

Beethoven's nephew Karl, had a son and 4 daughters. The son died before giving offspring and with him so did the Beethoven name. Now if we really wanted to split hairs we could look up the names of the 4 daughters and see if the tree follows into modern times, I suspect it does but as DPM stated and as I am realizing it's pointless.

Now, before you go on calling me a Christianity basher or anything equally retarded, I can go through page by page, annotation by annotation, and event by event in almost every "modern" version and older version(s) of almost EVERY holy book ever made and find nearly infinite examples as to why THEIR God is not true. I'm mentioning Christian examples and Christianity in general because that's the God that most people here have allowed themselves to believe is true while choosing to believe that everyone else is 100% wrong out of blind faith.

If reason is the greatest enemy of faith what sort of society would we have if society clung to faith over reason? (Think Salem witch, the inquisition, KKK, Islamic terror ect.)

Think about how much further advanced humanity could be if people like Galileo didn't have to fight the church to prove their discoveries.

Think about how much more opposition America would have to the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq if W. Bush didn't call it a "crusade" and make so many biblical references to it. The entire war on terror was publicly launched from the National Cathedral not the capitol building! The "evil doers" are the ones that use religion to manipulate the masses for their own personal gain.

I told someone that religion is the cleverest form of slavery ever devised. It traps and closes the mind and stifles progress. Faith defies logic thus (as we have seen) the faithful are not logical.

I don't post here to convert or to bring out anyone from their beliefs. I can not do that they have to realize it for themselves. I post because there are many people that are as of yet undecided and those are the people that need to follow this debate so that they can become informed and hopefully make the decision for themselves instead of just following everyone else around them.

sparticus? are you aware they believed in gods and miracles that never happened? that thats all stories.

they "miracles" arent there because they didnt happen.

You can't say that without providing proof as to the miracles that you believe happened.

-DarkPacMan77-

right back atcha

Jesus was really superman sent from the future using his hands of exellence to heal people.
if that is wrong it was really me, i accidently farted causing a spacial disburbance causing an anomoaly healing monster to go back in time and heal everyone he could.
it takes him 3 days to respawn that is all.

I might aswell chime in here since the anti religon (maybe not the best name, I know) is a little over powered

@Darkpacman
the bible is multiple books so it is not a single source but a compilation of several sources there are 4(this is off the top of my head) books specifically recounting the story of jesus christ and there where most likely more before the councils of nicea and trent.

@Que
The catholic church during the time of galileo went out of their way to recruit scientists and the most intelligent people into the church, besides which they already had the most information because they controlled most of the ancient roman texts. They ALREADY KNEW that the earth revolved around the sun they where afraid of what it might do to the people conceptions of the world which is dangerous in any situation religious or not. Also GWB was an imbecile and frankly he didnt have the charisma or intelligence to manipulate people with religon. Also human beings are not logical, that would be bland and boring having faith in something isnt bad it merely gives hope for the future, technically love isnt logical.

@Alex
Are you trying for shock factor.... otherwise that wasn't even a half decent argument...

[DarkPacMan77]

@Darkpacman
the bible is multiple books so it is not a single source but a compilation of several sources there are 4(this is off the top of my head) books specifically recounting the story of jesus christ and there where most likely more before the councils of nicea and trent.

@Que
The catholic church during the time of galileo went out of their way to recruit scientists and the most intelligent people into the church, besides which they already had the most information because they controlled most of the ancient roman texts. They ALREADY KNEW that the earth revolved around the sun they where afraid of what it might do to the people conceptions of the world which is dangerous in any situation religious or not.

The Bible does derive from multiple texts written from the accounts of multiple men. Yes. It still doesn't provide adequate information as to the legitimacy of the content within it and we know that because the legitimacy around everyone involved in creating The Bible and it's initial publication are all subject to intense scrutiny and none of the information in The Bible is cited - as in, having a direct reference to a documented source. I think that's important to consider when millions of people are following something that isn't cited.

@ your comments to Que

Que and I each believe that the Church gathered up &quote "smart people" to the Church and that those people and the more powerful in governance held knowledge that other people did not. We also, however, feel that they took that power and abused it in a most sinister fashion to form a religious gathering used to control the population. And on that note, we can go into a good length of detail to prove that point whereas the moments depicted in The Bible cannot be cited and explored as our points can.

Now, that doesn't make us right and you wrong. It's just food for thought.

-DarkPacMan77-

if the bible has the same thing written by different people, thats multiple sources. are you aying they all corresponded and said "yeah, heres the story, heres what we say"? uh, sure....

[DarkPacMan77]

if the bible has the same thing written by different people, thats multiple sources. are you aying they all corresponded and said "yeah, heres the story, heres what we say"? uh, sure....

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

-DarkPacMan77-

I'm with DPM here with these comments Darco.

It sounds like you have some documented evidence of a conspiracy within the church to hide truth and knowledge. Information that you need to share with us.

if the bible has the same thing written by different people, thats multiple sources. are you aying they all corresponded and said "yeah, heres the story, heres what we say"? uh, sure....

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

-DarkPacMan77-

ok. it just seems like you were. care to proove it? (not being like "PROOOOOOVE ET!", just sayin correct me

I might aswell chime in here since the anti religon (maybe not the best name, I know) is a little over powered

@Darkpacman
the bible is multiple books so it is not a single source but a compilation of several sources there are 4(this is off the top of my head) books specifically recounting the story of jesus christ and there where most likely more before the councils of nicea and trent.

@Que
The catholic church during the time of galileo went out of their way to recruit scientists and the most intelligent people into the church, besides which they already had the most information because they controlled most of the ancient roman texts. They ALREADY KNEW that the earth revolved around the sun they where afraid of what it might do to the people conceptions of the world which is dangerous in any situation religious or not. Also GWB was an imbecile and frankly he didnt have the charisma or intelligence to manipulate people with religon. Also human beings are not logical, that would be bland and boring having faith in something isnt bad it merely gives hope for the future, technically love isnt logical.

@Alex
Are you trying for shock factor.... otherwise that wasn't even a half decent argument...

Mate i was just joking lol i can't believe u took it seriously ¬¬ rofl

[DarkPacMan77]

ok. it just seems like you were. care to proove it? (not being like "PROOOOOOVE ET!", just sayin correct me

I wouldn't say that simply because it's stupid to say something like that. For instance, multiple authors conspire on multiple books and book series' every day. That doesn't make their writings true even if they said it was the truth no matter how old. In fact, it would give credence to the cause that it's false after considering that there's no such thing as Zeus, Hades, or Poseidon just as there's no such thing as Mithra, Attis, or Krishna.

-DarkPacMan77-